Xu Tiantian: How Can Small Architectural Interventions Create Big Changes?

00:00:01: That's what acupuncture means.

00:00:03: It is really a tailored program, the content that is most important.

00:00:08: it isn't building form and even sometimes you don´t need to build in order to revive identity of this village community.

00:00:17: so thats why every project is different.

00:00:22: Hello & welcome to design perspectives!

00:00:24: The podcast by the German Design Council.

00:00:27: My name is Katharina De Silva, editor-in-chief and today we are joined by a very special guest from Beijing China.

00:00:34: Xu Tiantian the founding principal of DNA Design & Architecture.

00:00:39: She and her office recently received the Honorary Award Architects Of The Year at the Iconic Awards

00:00:46: twenty-twenty

00:00:46: six.

00:00:47: Our host Martin Pauli speaks with Her about her approach to architecture And the concept of architectural acupuncture.

00:01:00: Thank you, Katharina.

00:01:02: Today's conversation takes us into one of the most compelling questions in architecture – how can careful place-based design help communities adapt, revive local economies and preserve cultural identity without turning places into museum pieces?

00:01:17: And just as important… How do projects like this actually come to life?

00:01:22: Who commissions

00:01:23: them?!

00:01:23: who pays for them?

00:01:24: and how does an architectural idea become a repeatable model of regional transformation?

00:01:31: Xu Tiantian is the founding principle of DNA design in architecture based on Beijing.

00:01:37: Her work internationally recognized its deeply contextual approach to rural revitalization, especially through the concept of architectural acupuncture.

00:01:48: Precise small interventions that create wider social, cultural economic and ecological impact.

00:01:56: From projects such as the Bamboo Theatre or the Jinjun Quarries The practice shows how architecture can work with local material craft landscape in communities strengthening what's already there rather than imposing something from outside.

00:02:14: her work has been recognized internationally with several awards Most importantly, the recent Iconic Award in twenty-twenty six.

00:02:22: The jury statements around these awards highlight a practice rooted in community place culture and preservation of local empowerment.

00:02:31: welcome to Tiantian.

00:02:34: you've been recently named architect of year at the iconic Awards.

00:02:39: what aspect your work do think the jury recognized particularly?

00:02:43: Thank You Martin.

00:02:46: It's nice to hear the jury comments from you.

00:02:51: The words captured me immediately is a community, I think this is probably most important part of our works that first of all identify overall situation related to each specific project and a place and the people, culture, life belonging to that place.

00:03:21: And

00:03:22: I guess... That community aspect or social aspects in

00:03:31: rural

00:03:31: China might be different than in a modern city?

00:03:41: What makes it particularly different to work in a more rural context

00:03:53: than China?

00:04:08: urban neighborhoods that every village community is a place where people have been living here through generations, building up very strong communities with glorious history and past legacy.

00:04:25: So this sense of pride or honor still embedded in each village community even though the community might not be promising economic performance at the moment.

00:04:40: That's interesting, yeah because I mean the logic seems to be different Because if you're an architecture practice in any global city there are certain investment logics.

00:04:51: You're talking to investors your talk into price per square meter and Related aspects that need to optimize everything for maximum value creation.

00:05:01: But this might be one of the key differences in rural China because the dynamics on the logic is completely different.

00:05:07: I think so.

00:05:08: I completely agree, it's much more sensitive context compared to larger cities.

00:05:16: It has a very different approach when working with this kind of context in the community.

00:05:25: In a way its more collaborative The design process engages the communities and really start with a much more subtle investigation into the local resource, local hidden values.

00:05:45: So that's why if you look at our projects they would be very different types of works from one place to another.

00:05:54: Yeah I'm really curious to dive in through your project in a second, but take us on our journey.

00:06:03: So you're trained as an architect?

00:06:05: You studied architecture and when you left the university was that a deliberate decision to focus more on local and rural communities.

00:06:16: how did it come?

00:06:17: can you take us a bit of their journey?

00:06:19: That didn't happen.

00:06:21: right after I finished schools I was working with different firms in different countries, and at the beginning there were always larger-scale buildings.

00:06:31: Public cultural buildings... And actually it seems to change.

00:06:38: after I returned to China in year two thousand four when i was working In the begining of my work as an artist will be on this Jinhua architectural park which is invited over ten international architects, each one will work on a small structure or scale building in this park along the water and river.

00:07:03: And working with artists' skills of architecture becomes smaller but it's also more defined.

00:07:14: I would say It's much more defined, precise when you work on the smaller scale of building structure.

00:07:22: I think there was a turning moment for me to look into architecture in a very different way and later on when i started my own practice we continued to work with the artist community ,with the curators which built Songjong Art Center Which is an artist village right out of Beijing City.

00:07:41: So even though it wasn't typical rural context, working with our center.

00:07:48: With the artist community wasn't a typical rural context but they started this.

00:07:54: I would say maybe this is the beginning moment that we started to look at into A much more maybe smaller But much more sensitive you know contextual approach

00:08:05: of architecture.

00:08:07: And what do you describe as More defined?

00:08:10: More Sensitive Maybe even more local?

00:08:14: Is that what you're describing when you are summarizing your approach as architectural acupuncture?

00:08:22: What could it imply in practice and beyond, how would you describe it.

00:08:27: We started this acupunctural term as a metaphoric term after we started the Songyang collaboration And the Songyang County, it's a typical agricultural county with thousands of small natural engine villages scattering in the region.

00:08:50: When we started to work with these different village communities We started realizing that this was really learning process for me and our team to understand rural as very different context from urban.

00:09:08: the village, even though they might seem similar from appearance and distance.

00:09:14: But when you really get to know people or local life You will understand that every village is different.

00:09:22: like I said in the beginning Every community has something they feel proud of their heart.

00:09:32: It makes us rethink about architecture not just a building, a form of an object but rather how the space becomes integrating with their daily life and their daily production activities.

00:09:50: How can they transform the legacy in this community?

00:09:55: The purpose is reviving cultural legacy or agricultural legacy, intangible cultural heritage is to restore the sense of pride and honor, at the same time revive the socio-economic potential.

00:10:12: So in that sense it's not just only a small scale structure but there are purposes for reviving or healing.

00:10:23: so then I think acupuncture in this sense fits perfectly with what we are trying to do, taking architecture and design as a treatment.

00:10:36: As a remedy for the local sentence or social issues.

00:10:42: So in this sense design is not just creating you know cultural space only but potentially it's also become an economic space A social space which later on inspired by younger villagers returning home and joining either the local agricultural projection or starting their own business ideas.

00:11:06: So it's actually, you know this is the acupuncture about acupuncturism just about individual like injections of needles but it's rather to boost the whole circulation.

00:11:19: So in that way, we are also looking into this on Young County not just as you know individual buildings locations but rather it becomes a social circulation.

00:11:30: It does become the local cultural economic circulation.

00:11:34: Yeah no I think makes perfect sense to me.

00:11:37: so its like might be just a local stimulation.

00:11:41: however has an implication of entire ecosystem.

00:11:48: easily relate to that, it makes perfect sense.

00:11:50: Let's go on a project-specific journey.

00:11:53: so maybe you can describe one particular project?

00:11:58: You must be proud of all your projects!

00:12:00: Of course.

00:12:00: but in the same way what we just described is kind of contextualized if you will.

00:12:09: So What did you find before you intervened?

00:12:14: Did you, your practice the community then kind of identified potentially as the most urgent challenge?

00:12:21: And why did he choose a particular intervention.

00:12:25: If I want to give an example that would be Brown sugar factory.

00:12:30: That was in early stage of Songyang collaboration.

00:12:36: So it's really probably beginning for our collaboration on this acupuncture strategy that we visited this Xin village, which is a flatland village.

00:12:49: And I visited during the winter time before Chinese New Year and was actually guided by local official from cultural department.

00:13:00: They wanted to show us how this village it's known for brown sugar production.

00:13:07: We want you take look so... visiting all these family workshops where, you know the villagers were cooking sugar in this winter season.

00:13:21: Basically in your backyard kitchen.

00:13:24: it was quite a phenomenon very... It was really good energy seeing people busy cooking and you can smell that air with the sweetness from the sugar.

00:13:40: but also realized there was a lot of hidden issues like the fire, hygiene food.

00:13:47: Hygiene issues for sure when production is down in backyard kitchen.

00:13:54: There were already discussions started simultaneously on site even though sugar was probably most important from this village.

00:14:07: but the villagers had troubles selling them, setting the sugar.

00:14:14: They would probably sell this that they should go on a street but nobody would buy it.

00:14:20: So as an individual household producing the sugar carrying to you know To the market or started on the streets It was quite difficult for them to promote their own products.

00:14:35: so then that becomes a collective idea during the discussion.

00:14:41: Can this become a collective activity when you can organize all these family workshops as a military union to build new factories, rural factory accommodating its traditional way of cooking sugar and then it becomes a collective economy?

00:15:04: instead of having your individual household facing a market economy.

00:15:09: And in that sense, the space becomes not only production factory but also a live museum to showcase this sugar as intangible cultural heritage and it's also learning field for visitors as well.

00:15:28: Of course if there is space can become community center cultural activities as well.

00:15:35: So, in short it's a Brown sugar factory.

00:15:39: can be a structure that is multitasking but most importantly to have space for collective production which really upgrades the production quality and price of brown sugar.

00:15:58: So this was the story, you know how we started that project.

00:16:03: And I think it turned out quite well because very soon just after two to three years the sugar price raised four to five times and space already attracted lots of visitors every winter season before the Chinese New Year as a holiday celebration at say destination only to see how people cook brown sugar.

00:16:27: So that also becomes a successful story for us to carry on this acupuncture strategy.

00:16:44: There

00:16:50: was no project before the visit.

00:16:52: So even during a visit, we had discussion on this production and also issues that farmers were not able to sell their products because they didn't have promotion channels.

00:17:10: I seek the idea of a factory started on site during this discussion together with officials from the cultural department.

00:17:21: Later, this proposal brought up to the hunting level, together with officials coming from town-level and also village representatives from local community.

00:17:35: So we sat down together as the village communities started to bring a proposal for how many family workshops will engage in these collective factories?

00:17:47: And the dimension of production space they needed.

00:17:52: you know, a factory.

00:17:55: So I would say that it wasn't like the very typical way of architect receiving projects as commission and imitation.

00:18:05: nothing was clear in the beginning.

00:18:10: so we visited sites.

00:18:12: We went to visit village.

00:18:14: there were no site As cultural phenomenon.

00:18:19: at same time After understanding the hidden issues, we started to... ...the discussion with everybody.

00:18:28: It was much more spontaneous before everything was brought up to official level for approvals but I think this is actually probably become very common way how we start it.

00:18:42: most of our projects now.

00:18:43: I mean, it sounds like a true bottom-up approach if you will.

00:18:48: So as you said instead of hey here's the project and do this design It is almost initiating its bottom up building trust with those local people in community.

00:19:01: because that'a question i have.

00:19:03: so they are the people from the village.

00:19:05: They have their heritage decades, if not centuries.

00:19:11: they're kind of pursuing their local business.

00:19:15: And now there comes someone like a committee from the outside including an architect.

00:19:24: how do you build trust with those people and families?

00:19:29: And communicate vision that they can benefit from

00:19:35: as opposed

00:19:35: to scaring them off?

00:19:39: So first of all, this brown sugar production is not only for decades.

00:19:42: It has to be there for centuries.

00:19:45: it's really the cultural identity of the Xin village as well and then of course its demand income resource in the village community.

00:19:57: so basically most villages are skilled workers on this type of production right?

00:20:06: For the villagers During the discussion, when we propose that maybe a new space will present this type of production as life performance and living museum to showcase this production.

00:20:31: This is the way that a community were definitely interested, they are very proud of their own heritage and production skills And what's more important with the collective space with upgraded production quality and also later on the factory can achieve food certificate for brown sugar.

00:20:58: This word definitely opens up new potentials for the local production in a social economic way.

00:21:06: And which later, if it happened... So all of these facts bringing understanding that value off this local production and bring in new potential I think is how communication becomes positive.

00:21:27: Yeah, and that's ultimately I believe what creates trust because we see a lot of participation processes where you build massive infrastructure projects roads tunnels bridges streets And then You can let the local community participate.

00:21:50: but doesn't really, that's a completely different thing than you're describing here.

00:21:57: That is what I also meant with bottom-up.

00:22:00: so this not just to create acceptance but it creates buy in identification and much more then that which seems unique.

00:22:12: i think thats what acupuncture means.

00:22:16: its really tailored program, maybe the content is most important.

00:22:25: It's not a building form.

00:22:26: it's definitely not and even sometimes you don't need a building in order to revive this identity right?

00:22:36: So I think if i have to make it short its really village community.

00:22:46: So that's why, you know every project is different.

00:22:48: You can't just build a library in every village or you kind of spare the art space in every Village.

00:22:56: It's really... The program belongs to the community.

00:23:00: it's really something That growing out of this place only you come be able to brown sugar factory In-a-neighbor village which doesn't work.

00:23:12: No no absolutely.

00:23:14: And that's interesting because I mean there is an observation.

00:23:17: Hey, this like a century old legacy and heritage.

00:23:21: however There's also an element That might be dysfunctional in terms of the economy might not work as it could work and then the intervention somehow enables that foundation to develop something into The future and create trust in the community that they can kind of somehow have a positive Vision, if you will for the next century.

00:23:49: It's not just architecture.

00:23:51: design is building only.

00:23:53: like I said earlier it's a social design process and with the feasible practical proposal that this proposal also needs to convince local authorities.

00:24:08: So it's a collective collaboration, not only with the communities but also different departments from local company government.

00:24:15: From different levels of the local government.

00:24:20: so this is I think you know its design process that expands our skills and knowledge as well.

00:24:29: everybody learns form these processes.

00:24:31: Yeah i was going to say about like almost like of orchestrating all those individual stakeholder needs, just to communities.

00:24:42: Just a municipality the government their economic aspects there are social cultural aspect.

00:24:49: and like orchestrating All that through The process into something into A piece Of intervention.

00:24:56: in what I love about this is That you say as an architect by the way?

00:25:00: There doesn't have To be building.

00:25:02: i think thats What makes it truly unique because I mean, often you find that regardless of what the question to an architect is.

00:25:11: The answer will always be a building.

00:25:14: and i think... That's

00:25:14: right!

00:25:15: ...that really makes it unique.

00:25:19: And like zooming out a bit on that particular project into your spectrum if you will What do you think?

00:25:29: What makes this intervention?

00:25:33: Last, in terms of like how do you know whether that project created a lasting social or cultural change?

00:25:41: Or value rather than temporary attention if you will.

00:25:46: I think it's the same answer.

00:25:49: um i would say this is why you know The acupuncture works because each Project Is different and every project is tailored to the local context And the local needs and it belongs to the community.

00:26:06: It's not built only for visitors, really you know...it is part of local life that how make building work in a long term more sustainable.

00:26:19: I think thats also what i get from this conversation.

00:26:21: so its not about creating museum then attract tons.

00:26:27: tourists come there with buses.

00:26:32: It's something that is much more like inherently owned by the local community.

00:26:39: Absolutely, yeah it's a sense of belongingness That it belongs to the place.

00:26:44: Yeah

00:26:46: I suppose also creates jobs and also a perspective for people To maybe stay where they are have trust in that local ecosystem, they can sustain it.

00:27:03: They don't need to leave the place for economic reasons because the region or village is disappearing which we see all over the world

00:27:13: Exactly.

00:27:14: I think, you know if we look at the either agricultural production like tofu or like brown sugar or abandoned quarries...I mean each project will looking for local hidden values which very often considered as a waste but then through design and it can revive value.

00:27:35: so that is to revive or restore sense of hope.

00:27:43: And these values can also bring economic, it brings income in the long term.

00:27:50: Which

00:27:50: is fair enough that there has to be some form of income?

00:27:54: Exactly and also very important all those projects are not requiring for extensive amount of investment.

00:28:04: It's low budget working with a local available resource.

00:28:09: So yes In general we're looking practical solution.

00:28:15: Yeah,

00:28:16: so have you ever encountered?

00:28:19: because it sounds fantastic?

00:28:24: It doesn't sound easy to be honest!

00:28:26: Um...it does not sound like a walk in the park if you will.

00:28:30: Have you ever like encountered?

00:28:32: also resistance or unintended consequences has aspects of certain projects.

00:28:41: I mean, could or should they have been different?

00:28:52: I think after Brown Sugar, we received a proposal from this Taijai village that they would like to have a tofu factory.

00:29:19: And then brought up their own proposals and chose the sites.

00:29:22: They calculated how many households in the villages will participate.

00:29:29: so it brings all of its initiatives.

00:29:32: So when you work at Luro, consider the fact of motivation, how to first about engaging in other village community that you would need work from.

00:29:50: The contents program is really important right?

00:29:53: That's How You Can Engage the Rural Community.

00:29:56: but also how to inspire or motivate is that they need to see the successful examples.

00:30:09: So everything, you know when... I think things accumulate right?

00:30:13: When you kind of establish step by step and it becomes easier.

00:30:20: so this not like just an even pace but with past ten years.

00:30:25: whenever we moved into a new place in the beginning was always very difficult But It gets better.

00:30:32: I had, like when i kind of was diving into your project and listened to what you described.

00:30:39: I had to think about the Guggenhaar Museum in Bilbao... ...in Spain because if there were a different or similar situation yeah?

00:30:50: There was a city that didn't really have very promising perspective.

00:30:57: And then someone decided, hey we need to do an intervention let's place like a giant spectacular museum and then millions of tourists come every year and flood the city with money if you will.

00:31:13: but what you describe sounds so much more sensitive embedded also sustainable.

00:31:21: I really appreciate that aspect.

00:31:25: This doesn't require a lot of investment.

00:31:28: It can kind of sustain with the help from local communities, so in a way it's like much more sustainable approach that can be replicated and scaled across many other communities.

00:31:45: Do you see similar?

00:31:47: Well... You will.

00:31:49: But similar movements across the world, have you been engaged also in similar projects in Latin or elsewhere?

00:32:00: Well I would say no.

00:32:03: The Guggenheim Museum was really a successful model to make Bill Ball famous.

00:32:10: but on the other hand we know Bill Ball only because of the Guggeheim Museum right?

00:32:15: Exactly!

00:32:17: I don't really, if i talk about Biobao then it's the Guggenheim Museum.

00:32:25: And i don't know how local people live in a city with their heritage or tradition?

00:32:32: history?

00:32:33: yes maybe because um yeah but i would love to know more.

00:32:40: and of course you're working in rural villages.

00:32:43: we don't have that type scale of investments.

00:32:54: Which is what makes it so unique

00:32:55: in a positive way?

00:32:56: I think like I keep saying, It has to be practical solution.

00:32:59: you know the local people and community are very strong-bounded communities.

00:33:08: they need to... The engagement between architects needs create this sense of belonging.

00:33:21: The project is really part of the village, a part of local life in order to make it work and convince everybody.

00:33:35: And also there has been practical modest budget at practical proposal brought up come to level.

00:33:46: So I think we're looking into a practical solution that can be sustainable, not only built up but realistically.

00:33:56: you'll come build Bougain High Museum in every village and city so... We are looking for a practical solutions.

00:34:07: There has the scalability that can apply to other rural regions.

00:34:12: And we know with the tailored program and also within modest budget, so it makes things easier.

00:34:21: How's your own practice then composed?

00:34:25: Because if there is not always a building probably don't need a lot of, like only designers?

00:34:33: Or is it... Like can you let us know about that.

00:34:38: That's very true!

00:34:40: We have our office as small team.

00:34:44: we have the fours five six people.

00:34:47: You know that's our regular size but we have lots of collaborators And in every project, we have a different collaborators.

00:34:57: We have collaborated with.

00:35:01: you know... Different structure engineers also including geotechnic engineers when needed for the quarry projects and For the island project will work with ecologists.

00:35:19: This is just.

00:35:22: I think it fits very well with our projects, this kind of a structure or organization.

00:35:29: But also it's very exciting.

00:35:31: every project you start to learn something different and new.

00:35:37: Absolutely!

00:35:38: You don't have to run the machine for three hundred people... ...and then get your next high-rise to sustain the practice?

00:35:46: which is also fine.

00:35:47: I mean, there are various different models out there and that's all good.

00:35:52: but what you describe fits like it's one hundred percent consistent with the projects that you described.

00:36:00: again i believe in what makes it so easy.

00:36:04: You're also teaching a lot.

00:36:06: What Is It?

00:36:08: The next generation of designers, architects planners, how excited are they to kind of about your projects?

00:36:18: And what is the key message for them.

00:36:22: I think when i teach it's actually paralleled with our practice and a very similar pedagogy as we work right ?

00:36:33: The most important message that young architects can really engage in this process of contributing, creating for certain social impacts with the design and architecture.

00:36:53: And you don't need to... I think with this model practice models young architects can start very early age on an independent practice.

00:37:07: but it does take a lot actual time and energy out of working, out-of-office in our own fields especially you know working discussing community.

00:37:18: it takes a lot of the time and efforts to work on site.

00:37:22: To communicate...to negotiate with different sectors, communities and officials administrations.

00:37:31: And it also requires a lot more knowledge not just how we learn to design on computer or paper but the life-knowledge coming from reality.

00:37:44: So I think its challenging.

00:37:48: It's very rewarding as well

00:37:52: Absolutely and I mean architects are used to a lot of work, but what you describe is also like beautiful role-and-job description.

00:38:06: It's about that lifelong learning.

00:38:08: it's about being engaged with people in communities to facilitate the technical aspects social, ecological.

00:38:17: so that kind of that orchestrator role and this is how the architecture studies often are also composed.

00:38:24: That's absolutely fantastic.

00:38:25: I mean you have to be such a broad thinker And then uh You can't have the specialist that you work with in your orchestrate into one coherent piece design, or intervention.

00:38:39: That must be a very encouraging message to be honest especially also in times of AI because my understanding is that almost none of the things you just mentioned can be solved by an artificial intelligence.

00:38:59: it might help with some of the nitty gritty aspects on the back office but the front end human.

00:39:08: And this is also kind of what I got from this conversation, which felt very human and modest and humble...and i really appreciate that!

00:39:21: Thank you Martin for putting it in a beautiful way but as an architect we need to be free-sinkers.

00:39:32: almost nothing can come after that statement.

00:39:36: So we're unfortunately, at the end of this conversation which I enjoyed a lot completely different perspective and i also really appreciate your time TianTian to share all that with us.

00:39:53: And uh... Really appreciate also work you do.

00:39:56: Thank You!

00:39:57: So thanks

00:39:58: Yeah it's wonderful.

00:39:59: thankyou so much.

00:40:03: That was the Design Perspectives Podcast.

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