Conny Bakker: How do we design products for more than one life?

00:00:01: It might be very helpful to sometimes stop and think, do you really need all this?

00:00:06: And that would be something I'd love to explore.

00:00:08: To say can we also not design?

00:00:10: what does it mean to ex-snow fades a product?

00:00:16: Welcome to Design Perspectives A podcast by the German Design Council!

00:00:21: Im Katharina de Silva editor in chief.

00:00:24: In this podcast We explore the potential of design

00:00:27: architecture

00:00:28: & innovation.

00:00:30: Now i'll hand over our host Martin Pauli.

00:00:35: Welcome to a new episode of Design Perspectives, my name is Martin Paulie.

00:00:39: Today's conversation is one I've been particularly looking forward as it brings us right through the foundation of circular design and how we can turn into practice.

00:00:48: Conny Becker is Professor of Circular Product Design at TU Delft One key voice shaping how designers think about circularity today.

00:00:58: For many years, she's been working on translating the idea of a circular economy into concrete design strategies from extending product life-cycles to rethinking systems of use ownership and value creation.

00:01:11: Her work challenges us to move beyond incremental improvements And to fundamentally rethink how we designed not just individual products but the system they're part of.

00:01:21: Welcome Connie.

00:01:23: I Martin agreed be here.

00:01:25: Connie you've been working in circular design long before it became mainstream.

00:01:31: Can you tell us what first drew you on this field?

00:01:36: Very nice question, I think... What first drew me was back in nineteen eighty-nine when i was graduating from the Faculty of Industrial Design in Delft and that year newspaper headlines appeared about global warming, and in those days acid rain was still an issue.

00:02:01: And I read those and realized that all through my studies—excellent studies industrial design and delfts —I had not been asked any questions about the environmental impacts of my work... ...and at this point I wanted to do something with

00:02:17: it.".

00:02:18: That sort-of realization has... date with me ever since.

00:02:26: Looking back to this particular moment, why did you then realize that the way we design products and systems fundamentally need a change?

00:02:37: Well I think the system's aspect came later.

00:02:41: initially it was just like Oh, my goodness.

00:02:45: We have been taught how to design beautiful products that people love to use and to design them smartly so they can be cheap or at least affordable... ...and are wonderful to use.

00:02:58: but we've never ever been asked to give any consideration of what happens after-use.

00:03:06: They just disappear as was in our methods.

00:03:11: So they literally disappeared from consciousness of designers in those days.

00:03:15: It was just not an option, it wasn't an issue to think about.

00:03:19: so bringing that perspective first... What happens with products after use?

00:03:25: How can be reused and repaired or recycled?

00:03:30: at the beginning And later I began to realise this requires a system shift

00:03:37: Yeah, which kind of?

00:03:38: we now refer to as the circular economy and not going beyond the circular design itself.

00:03:45: So you said nineteen eighty nine

00:03:48: years?

00:03:48: Yes

00:03:49: yeah.

00:03:49: so now thirty years later more than thirty years late what still keeps optimistic?

00:03:57: that this is right agenda And there's hope when at same time progress sometimes can feel a bit slow?

00:04:08: Yes, not just feel a little bit slow.

00:04:10: The progress is slow.

00:04:12: it feels like one step forward two steps back.

00:04:16: sometimes especially in the last couple of years that has been hard.

00:04:22: yeah what keeps me optimistic?

00:04:23: sometimes That's a big challenge to stay optimistic In the face of A world which seems to be turning away from from the climate crisis and from sustainability as an urgent topic.

00:04:39: I guess what keeps me optimistic is my patience, having been part of a academic environment for a long time teaches you to be extremely patient because when I returned to TU Delft it took me eight years to get a mandatory course in our bachelor on design for sustainability – eight years!

00:05:03: And so that told me, that TU Delft is also a system... ...that needs to change.

00:05:09: But the changes are always slow and very incremental.. ..and I guess in small ways TU DelFT represents all over the world!

00:05:17: So if it takes eight years for us to get a simple course,... It will take so much longer to get something changed into real-world.

00:05:26: Yes, interesting you say this because everyone's talking about constant disruption?

00:05:32: And it has become a buzzword, but what you say somehow as you said reflects the reality obviously much more.

00:05:40: We are often talking about incremental change and we wish that would be faster than at the same time not every human being likes to transform anything.

00:05:52: that's where we need to navigate collectively.

00:05:55: Totally yes!

00:05:56: I guess most of times changes is incremental or slow And as I said, one step forward two steps back.

00:06:04: But there are of course disruptive moments and we had on during COVID which was actually quite exciting in a weird way.

00:06:13: We have now very destructive moment with the war in Middle East Which really makes people think about fossil fuel dependency And so that is actually interesting.

00:06:28: So there may be a weird silver lining where we start considering, should we decrease our dependence?

00:06:39: That might just open up the window for opportunity again in renewable energy circularity.

00:06:47: It's interesting because I mean it has been for many years also completely abstract.

00:06:53: Oil and polymers are basically the foundation of today's, many product design is literally in everything.

00:07:01: And for us as experts consultants designers we could make that connection but from a majority people they don't necessarily see it.

00:07:14: all over sudden these international dependencies become much more visible.

00:07:19: Yeah, it has been very clear since the war in Ukraine started that these supply chain disruptions have started to happen and at least policymakers on the alert.

00:07:34: And some companies are feeling it but only slowly trickling down into a design profession.

00:07:45: I'm not aware of designed consultancies being asked to deal with critical raw materials for instance, although I do think they should.

00:07:53: So let's go kind of take a bit of step back again and somehow bridge that gap from theory too practice.

00:08:03: it help also the listeners too understand.

00:08:05: in your eyes as well as with your experience academic professional experience circularity is widely discussed topic But you and I, as many others know sometimes it can remain a bit abstract.

00:08:19: So what's your definition of circular design in very practical terms?

00:08:25: Yes so i come from the product-design background.

00:08:28: when people ask me questions like that or students... ...I usually explain this through products.. ..so basically how we make products last longer?

00:08:38: How do we make sure that the materials inside the products can cycle preferably indefinitely through reuse, re-manufacturing refurbishment recycling.

00:08:50: And then once you start thinking of a product in such a circular system... ...you begin to realise that it means that you have to take on board supply chains consumer preferences and business models.. ..and quickly get into more complex definition.

00:09:07: but as the starting point just talking about cycling the materials and components of a product for very long time is helpful starting point.

00:09:18: For many designers.

00:09:20: And reflecting on that epic career in product design, teaching and circularity – did questions from students change over time?

00:09:34: Not really actually!

00:09:36: I get to see new generation every year.

00:09:40: Yeah, in the beginning there was still a little bit of that climate denialism.

00:09:45: And so why do we need to learn this?

00:09:48: Is it really a problem?

00:09:49: That has completely changed!

00:09:52: So I used to have these classes where actually had big discussion on climate science and way climate denialist manifested itself... ...that's gone.

00:10:05: Now everybody seems like yeah This is clearly an issue.

00:10:09: What can we do about it?

00:10:11: I think the second thing, for a very long time students thought indeed that was really abstract and far away from their lived experience but through classes on things like product repair.

00:10:26: so where we do product dismounting sessions and teach students how awfully many products are designed.

00:10:36: That really brings it to a level that they can relate, and that gets them going.

00:10:44: I find that simple thing like putting the product in their hands and telling them take this apart... ...and tell me what you think all of sudden connects us with their lived reality.

00:10:56: And that sense indeed is usually asked.

00:11:02: The question has been through for many years.

00:11:05: What does it mean for me?

00:11:07: As a designer.

00:11:08: Finding as a designer, but also as person and so in the beginning they don't have difficulty making that distinction because there are not yet fully trained designers.

00:11:19: So... It's

00:11:20: interesting.

00:11:20: I mean to some extent They probably need make that pivot from being product designer To becoming systems designer That has full supply value chain that understands it, is almost able to control and design certain parts of it.

00:11:41: Is that landing step by step?

00:11:43: Step-by-step – It's a huge challenge!

00:11:46: And sometimes it even overwhelms me... So we are now slowly building this sort of approach through Bachelor and Master, where by the time they become master CESA students or at a very capstone project off their career that there's student's career.

00:12:02: They're able to take on boards with more systemic perspective when you have to think about business models about consumer acceptance about product architecture.

00:12:11: so were seeing what is coming.

00:12:15: it isn't complex one too embed carefully in in a six-year education trajectory, but I think this can be done.

00:12:22: Yeah and you're right... This is something that as soon there are professional career into that reality.

00:12:29: these are implications they will have to deal with anyway.

00:12:32: so it'll be a lifelong learning journey because even very established companies and organizations aren't necessarily always aware of of that imperative.

00:12:46: Don't be asked, there's a lot of learning post-graduates learning to be done as well.

00:12:51: actually Yeah We are not done yet.

00:12:54: No

00:12:55: no That is an ongoing journey.

00:12:58: Where do you see the biggest gap today between kind this circular ambition?

00:13:04: That we could easily frame at real implementation.

00:13:09: I know it was difficult question.

00:13:14: The biggest The biggest gap is, again what we've talked about that systemic approach.

00:13:21: I think many companies but Sinus as well they mistake circularity for recycling or something and make a few bespoke changes to our products if there are much differences.

00:13:36: They make an internal component out of recycled plastics An invisible internal components Do a bit of greenwashing and we are so circular.

00:13:49: That is, at least it's something... It's the step.

00:13:53: but that doesn't do justice to the complexity of going circular.

00:13:57: I mean framing in positive way what you might have also seen especially organisations start doubling down on whats within their control which is to kind

00:14:10: of rethink

00:14:10: maybe procurement and the product design itself, change even the design.

00:14:16: But then as soon as this has wider implications financial economic end also supply chain and downstream to customers than complexity usually kicks in.

00:14:29: And I'm not trying say that's a good development.

00:14:33: starting to use recycled plastics, because I know from practice that it is already difficult enough... ...to source those and make sure you get a steady supply of recycled plastics.

00:14:44: Of certain quality.

00:14:46: the cost implications are there.

00:14:50: so can imagine companies sell them as such.

00:14:53: but But looking at the way we teach circularity and the implications for a systemic change, then seeing that reflected in one component made of recycled plastics is sometimes a bit disheartening from an academic perspective.

00:15:09: So if I would work as a company let's say an SME known for fantastic products and product design... And we embark now on it on the circularity journey.

00:15:24: We have understood it might be a lever to also kind of decarbonize our footprint and so forth, based on your experience what is the most common mistake I can avoid immediately?

00:15:37: Oh yeah!

00:15:38: So um... The most common mistakes i think trying to do everything at once.

00:15:43: So..I've worked with company source totally into circularity And we developed very cool value proposition for their products, like taking the product spec refurbishing them selling again if you'd like or putting out a lease model.

00:15:59: And they really loved it.

00:16:01: and he said well we're going to do

00:16:02: this.".

00:16:03: Then got bogged down by very complexity of making such a change.

00:16:09: If your company is selling products then all of sudden become an excess provider then the change is massive.

00:16:18: You need to completely rethink how you communicate with your consumers, the way that you do contracting and actually start earning revenue... ...the design of a product or refurbish it?

00:16:31: The standards around.

00:16:33: everything changes but there's too much in one go.

00:16:37: so we have to take step by step.

00:16:40: Everything you said implies nothing else than fundamental change business model that you have probably established over decades.

00:16:51: And if kind of treated for and then optimized it, for efficiencies in all that?

00:16:55: Now we're saying hey let's not redesign the product Let's read design and rethink literally every aspect of our business.

00:17:04: You are right That can be overwhelming.

00:17:07: Also getting the buy-in from your stakeholders internally externally From a customer concepts failing.

00:17:16: Exactly, even if the value proposition is strong because you do it smartly and well... ...you might be able to sell your own products twice as

00:17:28: much

00:17:28: down to earth.

00:17:30: but there are also interesting ways that you can develop such a circular system open up new markets really add value for people.

00:17:44: So companies often see that, but then actually getting it done in practice is a huge ask.

00:17:52: Yeah and also making it commercially viable.

00:17:56: we've seen examples where ultimately the business case was not necessarily visible mainly because there wasn't no economy of

00:18:05: scale

00:18:06: which requires the entire system.

00:18:09: Then we

00:18:11: are in that

00:18:11: systems transformation journey, which might take not really thirty years.

00:18:16: But yeah, scale is a big thing here.

00:18:19: you mentioned kind of the next life cycle and it seems to be.

00:18:22: obviously I can have a core idea in your work design for multiple life cycles, pretty much also DNA of circular system.

00:18:32: so going back to what's within control of A designer or a design department in an organization, what does it require in practice?

00:18:42: To decide for multiple life cycles.

00:18:47: For your designer in practice its requires?

00:18:49: well of course given that they have the space to actually think this way because often don't when their assignment is not geared towards such.

00:18:59: so if you can take little bit thinking space I find very stimulating to think longer term of boutier products.

00:19:10: So what would be the possibility, in such a way that it can last long and keeps delivering value over time?

00:19:21: What needs done for this product is to ensure that this happens.

00:19:26: I'd be grateful or thankful process to do so because

00:19:32: it

00:19:32: stimulates creativity.

00:19:33: Rewarding, that was the word.

00:19:36: For designers this can truly rewarding process Because it does stimulate creativity.

00:19:41: if you have think over not just two years but over decade and taking that mind shift opens up your horizons which is cool.

00:19:56: Yeah the same also at a building scale or even in city-scale.

00:20:01: It opens an entirely new world of creativity and collaboration, so yes we can become very enthusiastic.

00:20:13: The question to the question of ownership.

00:20:16: you touched on it already Of course.

00:20:19: like we are familiar with product as a service business models Or the overall service economy That is obviously linked.

00:20:27: So how would you say the concepts like repair, use re-manufacturing change?

00:20:32: The way we think about ownership of a product... Is that fundamental precondition or not?

00:20:40: It's an interesting question because when started with the whole circular economy concept We were very convinced to move away from ownership.

00:20:50: But I have actually come to think differently about it over time Because it is, if you only would have access models like rental or lease or these kind of subscription models.

00:21:04: We've seen in practice that there's a very dark side to that

00:21:08: with bikes for instance.

00:21:10: So those bitbikes yeah That's the thing.

00:21:12: but also thinking about companies who give access can take away Or If company goes out business You're stuck where their service no longer available.

00:21:25: So there are all aspects that can make access models.

00:21:29: Actually, well... There's huge rebound effects when you put it this way.

00:21:34: so I think something to be said for having ownership of products and people actually truly value it.

00:21:41: but then we have to be smart about how to keep circulating product.

00:21:45: if people own them or keep in a way they want But also want to circulate To say goodbye to their products in a good way.

00:21:57: It's

00:21:57: interesting that you said it because obviously there are different like product or design, or ownership archetypes.

00:22:04: I mean the good old Eames lounge chair.

00:22:07: You probably better want your own it but you're a fridge Probably if you don't have an emotional relationship and that somehow determines The way that ownership could be designed.

00:22:20: That makes sense

00:22:21: Absolutely yes.

00:22:22: And this is actually quite only a few products that would work well in the non-ownership setting.

00:22:28: I think we still very much are attached to having stuff and being able, you know... ...to feel things as yours create an emotional connection with your product And it's difficult if you don't own them.

00:22:43: But at the same time like the laptop we're looking for now let us surely know If i need to have this feeling every morning.

00:22:54: Mine isn't even mine, it's the Tudor.

00:22:59: So that seems to be the red line of course.

00:23:03: Circularity is not only related to product and product design but there are huge systems implications.

00:23:14: looking at your academic career with students What's within their control to better engage

00:23:25: with

00:23:26: business model thinking and value chains?

00:23:29: How can they become those systems designer.

00:23:32: Yeah, I think we're in this sort of transition phase at the moment where are moving away from purely product design... ...to becoming actually also putting let say framing design as a systems business if you like.

00:23:48: training our students to start thinking more, we call it systemic design in those terms.

00:23:54: To become sometimes we called systems orchestrators?

00:24:00: We're still very much learning what that means and what kind of competencies we need our designers to develop because you don't want to give up the materiality... ...of what it means to design a product, the aesthetics.. ..and then knowledge of the product architecture.

00:24:17: But at the same time, we see that without having that systemic knowledge and being able to engage with a system around products you won't have any impacts or very little impact.

00:24:29: And I completely get.

00:24:31: it also reminds me of the role of architects maybe thirty years ago now.

00:24:39: so they've always been like orchestrators, as you say that are kind of directors basically directing individual instruments so there's one sound.

00:24:53: That makes sense and in a way they have been facilitating all those various different disciplines And it might be an interesting analogy to what the future of product design could look like Like almost facilitate all these different disciplines Practically speaking, so can I imagine that product designers also work with economists and people from procurement?

00:25:24: Yeah exactly.

00:25:26: We are actually doing it right now.

00:25:27: we're working with policy makers were looking at people from procurements experiences in a project on sustainable health care where they worked with the hospital procurement people to help them decide part to buy and what not, but it does retain your role dramatically.

00:25:47: And you need to become versant in the language of procurement or you'll be able to write a policy brief which requires very different skills.

00:25:59: so that's what we are grappling with at the moment because it dilutes product designer or a designer in general.

00:26:07: And so we constantly run up against limits like, okay writing the policy briefs shouldn't be left that... We should let it be done by people who can do that really well?

00:26:17: So what is our role then?

00:26:20: to defeat those people with our insights?

00:26:22: probably yes and still we need to be able to speak that language at least more than we used to be frontier, sort of like where we were working into or transdisciplinary trying to reach out.

00:26:40: To other disciplines work with them learn their language but still try to stay true to the core what it is to be a designer.

00:26:49: and this is a transition going through in our faculty And really struggling with that actually because What Is Our

00:26:56: Identity?

00:27:02: giving up and letting things happen that have been historically within your control.

00:27:10: There's a risk of things diluting too much, there are to many compromises but...

00:27:17: Yes!

00:27:17: And it is worry-of-line as well like if we dilute too much beyond product design or product service design our products' experience design which has been expanding quite bit over the years then then at some point can we even be recognized as a profession?

00:27:34: It's

00:27:34: very interesting.

00:27:36: I mean, if the role of a designer could transition into that role... ...of kind of that mastermind that somehow facilitates their entire process and somehow pulls in all the relevant disciplines And takes many viewpoints on a project That is super exciting, if you like.

00:27:58: I

00:28:00: guess also in the score that's what was meant with design thinking maybe?

00:28:05: So yeah it is super and we see the exciting chances of having such a role... Such an orchestrator role.

00:28:13: but then again aren't being arrogant here or aren't trying to claim something is maybe beyond us, so those doubts are there as well.

00:28:25: I

00:28:26: mean ultimately it's a question of ownership.

00:28:28: someone needs to own that process if you like.

00:28:32: Someone needs to be able turn all these various elements perspectives and disciplines into one coherent piece.

00:28:45: Exactly,

00:28:46: yeah.

00:28:46: That can be the role of a designer.

00:28:48: I believe many people could live with that very well also many students

00:28:53: but... Yeah it's interesting.

00:28:55: what you're saying because indeed i think now did to mention is that architects have worked like for long time.

00:29:01: they may have lost some of their influence over years at least in the Netherlands But designers have used atleast industrial design.

00:29:08: as far where come from.

00:29:10: They've been service oriented and Whatever the client asks, we'll do it.

00:29:15: But if you like... We need to take more ownership of that process.

00:29:24: I think there's also a need for these role models especially in design world which has strong focus on individual genius sits at their table and kind of draws a perfect line, but the reality is different.

00:29:41: And I think also the reality for very successful designers out there is completely different.

00:29:47: it's much more multidisciplinary and i Think that step by step needs to learn especially in the context Of like systems design and circular design.

00:29:59: Maybe that's an interesting segue.

00:30:00: Also two looking towards like the future generation.

00:30:04: I mean, you shaped basically hundreds if not thousands of students how to think about circular design.

00:30:14: What's the future mindset shift that is going to be most important for that generation?

00:30:23: That easy hard question... Simple question!

00:30:27: Not such a simple answer.

00:30:28: Future mindset shifts in a way i think but we just touched upon How can we educate our designers to become those system orchestrators?

00:30:39: That would be a nice one.

00:30:41: To work towards and see how we can develop that, at least let's say a kernel of the role during education because it is big step.

00:30:53: you have to learn so many skills along the way.

00:30:56: I think we have designers who do this in our cohort not everyone, but for those who are open to it.

00:31:05: It might be a very interesting one to start... To have that point on the horizon and ambition like can we develop you into a system orchestrator instead of just I probably designed.

00:31:16: We still need those as well.

00:31:18: But

00:31:21: is there a risk?

00:31:22: That people students can feel overwhelmed because There's too much

00:31:26: complexity?

00:31:28: Yes Well yes Yes, I am also overwhelmed sometimes.

00:31:33: And so the only way to deal with that is taking it step by step and slowly layering on levels of complexity as they are ready – some can take more than others….

00:31:46: …and be

00:31:48: crystal

00:31:48: clear what's within your control or within your image where you have an impact ultimately?

00:31:58: Yeah but then again... You can push that boundary, right?

00:32:02: As you just said.

00:32:03: So yes if you accept whatever other people tell you is within your remit's I won't get very far but it feels to start pushing those boundaries started reaching out to politicians starts building their own company and there are more than what they could do.

00:32:20: And we also try together.

00:32:21: students who think about entrepreneurship starting something new for issues they find important.

00:32:31: How to reach out the politicians in a small country, we can do this?

00:32:36: Yes you have been doing it very successfully as a country.

00:32:39: I mean its a lighthouse country and then also many other regards.

00:32:45: so if we look ten fifteen years ahead now glimpse into future.

00:32:53: For your personally what would success for circular design actually looks like?

00:32:59: I think success means that going, well and i know we have to go short small steps.

00:33:06: I think having something in society so there's this normalization of.

00:33:15: you know that it's normal... That products last a long time!

00:33:20: ...that they can be repaired.. ..that its normal that are recycled in a thorough way.

00:33:26: That would be such big thing already It

00:33:32: almost becomes mainstream.

00:33:34: Yeah, another.

00:33:35: for that to happen we do need those system operators and system orchestrators but just normal people.

00:33:42: everyday life is still so extremely wasteful And we have been So good as a society To shorten product lifespans.

00:33:54: Very insidiously almost.

00:33:58: It has become normalized in a way that A washing machine lasts six to eight years instead of twenty.

00:34:06: A laptop four years, instead of twelve so... To get back even the simple thing is going be massive endeavour and it would have been big gain if we could manage to shift that mindset.

00:34:20: If you got there then it will create fertile ground for building circumstances.

00:34:27: Yeah, as you also say we need to see the evidence in terms of data volumes and quantities being reused everything that is written into strategies.

00:34:42: now We really have to get the proof points That we are actually achieving those targets step by step And then many of us won't care whether talking about circularity as long we can achieve these goals.

00:35:00: That's already the last question, unfortunately for that kind of discussion point.

00:35:05: what is the one assumption about design or sustainability?

00:35:08: Did you as a professional think we need to change more radically where I

00:35:22: think we need to look into sufficiency much more than what you're currently doing.

00:35:27: Enough is enough, right?

00:35:29: So circularity still has a tendency... ...to work with the current system.

00:35:35: many people who are into circularity think that as long as we recycle our materials and products like PONS we can do more of it because then its okay to use more Because we recycle and cycle.

00:35:48: but i think that needs to stop.

00:35:52: We are an affluent society extremely rich in the northwestern Europe.

00:35:58: It's very unpopular to talk about sufficiency, having enough not making more and not having more.

00:36:05: but I think it is a discussion we need have And i'm not completely sure how to start that... ...and its'a difficult one In design space To talk about NOT designing.

00:36:20: There's something to be said for not innovating, the whole way of thinking especially now with AI revolution is about radically accelerating innovation processes.

00:36:36: It sort of leaps forward into faster and faster whereas it might very helpful sometimes stop and think do we really need all this?

00:36:48: And that would be something I'd love to explore in the final stages of my career here at Delft.

00:36:54: To say, can we also not design?

00:36:57: What does it mean to ex-novate a product?

00:37:02: That sounds very radical and that's why... ...it probably needs to be done as you said.

00:37:11: It might be kind of like the next chapter.

00:37:14: Yeah yeah A radical challenge, right?

00:37:18: So this is the most radical in a weird way that I can think of.

00:37:22: Koni, we're already at the end of... ...of this season and i really enjoyed the conversation with you!

00:37:28: It could have deep dived on so many aspects And we might just kind of continue it offline.

00:37:36: But At this stage I want to thank for your time and reflections and insights Also also for like fantastic work You've been doing.

00:37:46: it, you are doing.

00:37:48: And I wish all the kind of success and energy and passion to unlock that next chapter in talk about what's efficiency with your

00:37:58: students.".

00:38:03: Thank-you for tuning into The Design Perspectives podcast!

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00:38:11: And if you have any questions or feedback, feel free to email us at podcast.gdc.de.